Throughout church history there has always been an interesting tension between creativity and functionality. What is more important? Creating beautiful things or getting a certain message across? What is more important to worship? Right theology or beautiful art that displays the glory of God?
Do we need better theology in our songs or more honesty? We intuitively know this is a tension to manage, not a problem to solv e. No one would argue that theology doesn’t matter. But has our pursuit of rightness caused us to lose some imagination? Some humanity?
Has our church culture fixation on efficiency, productivity, and uniformity formed us to forget the mystery and wonder of singing together as people?
My guest today is John Mark McMillan. John Mark is a brilliant artist, singer-songwriter, and lyricist. He has existed at this interesting intersection of artistry that most people don’t understand while also writing some of the most popular worship songs of the last 30 years.
We talk about a lot of things. We talk worship. We talk church. We talk spiritually formative practices. We dive into guitar tone, abuse in the church, and the real story behind the infamous line, “sloppy wet kiss.”
Topics Covered:
- What JMM loves about life right now
- Reading and listening to records
- Why it’s helpful to listen to music different than the music you make
- How worship music is uniquely positioned to serve our society
- How we’ve missed the point of worship music
- The tension between creativity and serving our congregations
- Why you should make art for yourself and not an audience
- How JMM created the guitar tone on “Daylight”
- Why art is never safe
- Spiritual formation habits and practices
- Viewing church as a spiritual practice
- How to process abuse and injustice in the church
- The story behind “sloppy wet kiss”
Resources Mentioned:
- Show Sponsor: Dwell Bible App
- Show Sponsor: Planning Center
- 1996 by Ryuichi Sakamato
- Playing the Piano by Ryuichi Sakamato
- The Way to Love by Anthony de Mello
- Awareness by Anthony de Mello
- How Music Works by David Byrne
Show Sponsor: Dwell Bible
This episode is brought to you by dwell bible app. In our busy lives finding quiet moments to read the Bible can be challenging. I get it. Traditional, reading focused apps demand undivided attention.
You have to carve out specific time and space in your day but this also means missing opportunities to engage with scripture in your car or during workouts, or while you’re just doing stuff around the house.
And that’s where Dwell Bible app comes in, offering a unique way to engage with Scripture. Unlike reading apps, Dwell is audio-based. It allows the truth of Scripture to be read over you throughout your day.
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The word is with you wherever you are, filling your every day, mundane moments. So give Dwell a shot— it’s a no-brainer.
You’ll get to experience a whole new way to connect with God through the Bible. To get started listening, head to dwellbible.com/beyondsunday for up to 50% off today!
Show Sponsor: Planning Center
This episode is brought to you by Planning Center, helping you sync all your ministry details across your whole church.
Planning Center has become so essential to how I manage a team, that it’s almost impossible to consider local church ministry without it anymore.
Today, I want to leave you with a PCO pro-tip.
Does this sound like a familiar situation? It’s the end of the week. You’re about to leave the office when you suddenly think: Did all of our volunteers confirm for Sunday? You scroll through the schedule and sure enough—there’s a gap.
Instead of allowing yourself to spiral into a panic, try this:
In Services, Planning Center has gap alerts. Turn them on, and you’ll get a heads-up days before service if positions are still unfilled or unconfirmed. No more end of the week scrambling.
Speaking of less scrambling, did you know you can access everything you need for rehearsals right from the Service media player on your phone? Lyrics, chord charts, arrangement notes—it’s all right there, so you’re not hunting for files in the middle of hitting those power chords.
To see what else you can do to make your Sundays easier, go to planningcenter.com/blog.
