Beyond Sunday Worship

Worship Podcast

#404: Transactional vs. Transformational Faith With Jonathan R. Bailey

What is spiritual formation? What does it mean to follow Jesus? How do we change and transform? Does it happen in a moment or develop over a lifetime? So much of modern evangelicalism is oriented towards encounter – powerful experiences. I – for one – am grateful for powerful experiences I’ve had in the presence of God. But when we frame spiritual growth as a moment – as an encounter – what are we missing out on? In what ways are we being malformed?

This is the subject of my conversation with Jonathan R. Bailey, author of the new book Dwelling in Christ: Discover the Threefold Path of Spiritual Transformation. Jonathan’s was one of my favorite spiritual growth reads this year. For one, it’s not a long book and I too often find myself reading long books. But it’s also a down to earth description of what it actually looks like to follow Jesus over a lifetime. No easy answers. No escaping suffering. And so I wanted to talk to him about it.

Jonathan is the cofounder of Dwell, an audio Bible app helping people rediscover the ancient practice of listening to Scripture. He also serves on the ministry team at Renovare, an organization founded by Richard Foster.

Resources Mentioned:

#391: Pastoring Border Patrol Agents And Immigrants with Evan Wickham

I’m not a Lead Pastor, but I can’t imagine anything more difficult than pastoring in today’s political climate. We feel that these days are unique, but in reality they are not. History has much to teach us.

Occasionally I like to bring Lead Pastors onto the podcast to talk about how they’re navigating cultural issues. My guest today is Evan Wickham. Evan is the older brother of Phil Wickham, also a worship leader and songwriter, and the pastor of Park Hill Church in San Diego, California. Here’s what’s interesting: In his very church, he has a Christian Border Patrol Agent and Immigrant families, both trying to make sense of the times in which we live. Evan’s perspective on how to pastor faithfully is enlightening. What does faithful pastoring look like? How do partisan politics compromise the gospel? Should our Sunday services address the latest issues in the news or should we just stick to the gospel? Is it possible to pastor from the political center?

We can’t escape politics, no matter how much we would like to try. Politics effect how we live together. The Bible is a political book.

Conversations like this rarely make anyone happy but faithful leaders need to step into the tension. Don’t miss the end of the conversation where we talk about worship, songwriting, and the presence of God in our churches. Evan’s challenge were beautiful and surprising.

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#389: The Tension Between Organizational Progress and Pastoral Care Within The Church with Michael Olson

One of the practices that I believe is important for the church in America is to regularly evaluate and interrogate the systems we operate by. What can often pass as biblical is actually just business. What we believe to be Christian is actually just American. When we evaluate the systems we are shaped by, we are more prepared to pivot when our systems hurt people. When the efficiency of our churches miss what the Bible calls us to.

Is it all bad? Of course not. Is it all broken? Of course not. The church imperfect. We are imperfect. I am far from perfect. But if we don’t have the courage to ask questions we can focus more on organizational progress than we do pastoral care.

My conversation today is with my good friend Michael Olson. Michael is an author, musician, and worship leader. He’s a recording artists. He traveled the world playing drums for Michael W Smith. Over the last 16 years he’s led worship at two of the fastest growing churches in America. He’s also written a beautiful new memoir called Daddy Set The Church on Fire: A Journey Toward Restoration.

At the heart of this book is the reality that Jesus is making all things new. The church is broken. We are broken. This world is broken. But if we have eyes to see, there is redemption all around.

This is a conversation for you if you follow Jesus. If you’ve been hurt by the church. If you haven’t been hurt by the church. If you’re a worship leader and feel like a cog in an endless machine of efficiency. If you feel broken by the weight of loss and pain. We talk all about it. 

Topics Covered:

  • Developing a theology of suffering
  • The highs and lows of growing up Pentecostal
  • What we can learn about Spirit and Truth from Eugene Peterson
  • The diversity of the body of Christ within the attractional mega church, reformed church, and Pentecostal church
  • The tension between organizational progress and pastoral care
  • The story behind Michael’s book title, “Daddy Set The Church on Fire”

Resources Mentioned:

Show Sponsor:

This episode is brought to you by Planning Center, helping you sync all your ministry details across your whole church.

Planning Center has become so essential to how I manage a team, that it’s almost impossible to consider local church ministry without it anymore.

Today, I want to leave you with a PCO pro-tip.

Does this sound like a familiar situation? It’s the end of the week. You’re about to leave the office when you suddenly think: Did all of our volunteers confirm for Sunday? You scroll through the schedule and sure enough—there’s a gap.

Instead of allowing yourself to spiral into a  panic, try this:

In Services, Planning Center has gap alerts. Turn them on, and you’ll get a heads-up days before service if positions are still unfilled or unconfirmed. No more end of the week scrambling.

Speaking of less scrambling, did you know you can access everything you need for rehearsals right from the Service media player on your phone? Lyrics, chord charts, arrangement notes—it’s all right there, so you’re not hunting for files in the middle of hitting those power chords.

To see what else you can do to make your Sundays easier, go to planningcenter.com/blog.