Beyond Sunday Worship

Worship Podcast

#404: Transactional vs. Transformational Faith With Jonathan R. Bailey

What is spiritual formation? What does it mean to follow Jesus? How do we change and transform? Does it happen in a moment or develop over a lifetime? So much of modern evangelicalism is oriented towards encounter – powerful experiences. I – for one – am grateful for powerful experiences I’ve had in the presence of God. But when we frame spiritual growth as a moment – as an encounter – what are we missing out on? In what ways are we being malformed?

This is the subject of my conversation with Jonathan R. Bailey, author of the new book Dwelling in Christ: Discover the Threefold Path of Spiritual Transformation. Jonathan’s was one of my favorite spiritual growth reads this year. For one, it’s not a long book and I too often find myself reading long books. But it’s also a down to earth description of what it actually looks like to follow Jesus over a lifetime. No easy answers. No escaping suffering. And so I wanted to talk to him about it.

Jonathan is the cofounder of Dwell, an audio Bible app helping people rediscover the ancient practice of listening to Scripture. He also serves on the ministry team at Renovare, an organization founded by Richard Foster.

Resources Mentioned:

#401: How Studying History Can Help The Church Tell The Truth, Face Reality, & Confront Harmful Systems with Kristin Kobes Du Mez

Maya Angelou once said, “”History, despite its wrenching pain, cannot be unlived, however, if faced with courage, need not be lived again.”

The discipline of reading and studying history is not to make us feel good. It’s to instruct us so we don’t repeat the same mistakes.

One of the greatest living historians of American Christianity is Kristin Kobes Du Mez. Her book Jesus And John Wayne: How White Evangelicals Corrupted a Faith and Fractured a Nation explores how American evangelicalism embraced militant masculinity and Christian nationalism. It was released in 2020 and was a worldwide bestseller. It’s not an easy book to ready, but helps to make sense of so much what we’re seeing in America today.

Her new book Live Laugh Love: The Secret History of White Christian Women and the World They Made is another tour de force. It’s a sweeping history about Christian women, but it’s not only for women to read. We break it down in this interview and talk about 19th century holiness evangelicalism, the widespread influence of Hannah Whitall Smith and her book “A Christian’s Secret to a Happy Life”, the marketing machine of American religion, influential women artists in Christian music, why it’s impossible to be apolitical, and why we need to pay attention to stories of spiritual abuse.

Historians are not our enemies, even if they tell us what we don’t want to hear. Be prepared to be surprised, infuriated, challenged, and motivated to work towards a healthier church.

Topics Covered:

  • The surprising success of Jesus And John Wayne
  • What the critics of J&JW are saying
  • Why critiquing evangelical culture is so challenging
  • Why Kristin was talking about Doug Wilson before he was national news
  • The origins of Live Laugh Love
  • Hannah Whitall Smith and her influence on Christian women’s culture
  • 19th century holiness evangelicalism and it’s influence today
  • The marketing machine of American religion
  • Why it’s impossible to be apolitical
  • Why what is marketed as biblical is not always biblical
  • The fascinating and tragic story of Elizabeth Elliot

Resources Mentioned:

Show Sponsor #1: Dwell Bible

This episode is brought to you by the Dwell Bible app. Did you have big plans to listen to the Bible in a Year in 2026, but life seemed to get in the way? 

Maybe it’s been a few years since you worked through a Bible listening plan, and now you’re feeling the itch to dive back in. Or perhaps this is your first time hearing about a Bible listening plan.


Wherever you find yourself today, Dwell has something special just for you!

Beginning October 1, you can dive into the New Testament in just three months! It’s the perfect way to get back on track or start fresh, by listening to the Bible! It’s never been more easy to fit a Bible plan into your active lifestyle.


You can choose from multiple NT in 90 Day plans like:

  • The Genre Plan – which groups books by their theme, taking you through the Gospels, Epistles, and Prophecy in a way that highlights their connections and differences
  • The Historical Plan – which takes you through the New Testament as it was likely written, offering a unique historical perspective
  • The Straight Thru Plan – which takes you through the traditional order, from the life of Jesus through the growth of the early church


And remember, with Dwell, you’re not just listening—you’re experiencing the Bible. You can choose from a variety of amazing voices, set the perfect background music, and even adjust the speed to match your pace.


To subscribe to a new plan now, head over to dwellbible.com/beyondsunday for 50% off today and so you’re ready to start on October 1st!

Show Sponsor #2: Planning Center

This episode is brought to you by Planning Center, helping you sync all your ministry details across your whole church.

Planning Center has become so essential to how I manage a team, that it’s almost impossible to consider local church ministry without it anymore.

Today, I want to leave you with a PCO pro-tip.

Does this sound like a familiar situation? It’s the end of the week. You’re about to leave the office when you suddenly think: Did all of our volunteers confirm for Sunday? You scroll through the schedule and sure enough—there’s a gap.

Instead of allowing yourself to spiral into a  panic, try this:

In Services, Planning Center has gap alerts. Turn them on, and you’ll get a heads-up days before service if positions are still unfilled or unconfirmed. No more end of the week scrambling.

Speaking of less scrambling, did you know you can access everything you need for rehearsals right from the Service media player on your phone? Lyrics, chord charts, arrangement notes—it’s all right there, so you’re not hunting for files in the middle of hitting those power chords.

To see what else you can do to make your Sundays easier, go to planningcenter.com/blog.