The idea of worship is simple. Uncomplicated. When you think about it, worship is ascribing worth to someone or something.

As people of faith, we ascribe to God the worth, praise and adoration that He is due.

But worship that intersects with industry and organizations is inherently complicated. That doesn’t mean it’s wrong. That the worship industry is wrong or all mega church worship is unbiblical.

What it means that it’s complicated and it’s worth the wrestle.

Today’s guest is Anna Golden – a worship leader, songwriter, and artist. Anna is a worship leader at Shoreline City Church in Dallas and has a wonderful new worship album out called Just Us.

My favorite song on the project is called Uncomplicated – and that’s what I wanted to talk with Anna about.

In what ways have we complicated worship individually and corporately? What are the current tensions within the worship industry? We discuss tools and tips for worship leaders. And as a bonus, we both talk about our background as homeschoolers raised in the church and how that has shaped who we are today.

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Throughout church history there has always been an interesting tension between creativity and functionality. What is more important? Creating beautiful things or getting a certain message across? What is more important to worship? Right theology or beautiful art that displays the glory of God?

Do we need better theology in our songs or more honesty? We intuitively know this is a tension to manage, not a problem to solv  e. No one would argue that theology doesn’t matter. But has our pursuit of rightness caused us to lose some imagination? Some humanity?

Has our church culture fixation on efficiency, productivity, and uniformity formed us to forget the mystery and wonder of singing together as people?

My guest today is John Mark McMillan. John Mark is a brilliant artist, singer-songwriter, and lyricist. He has existed at this interesting intersection of artistry that most people don’t understand while also writing some of the most popular worship songs of the last 30 years.

We talk about a lot of things. We talk worship. We talk church. We talk spiritually formative practices. We dive into guitar tone, abuse in the church, and the real story behind the infamous line, “sloppy wet kiss.”

Topics Covered:

• What JMM loves about life right now
• Reading and listening to records
• Why it’s helpful to listen to music different than the music you make
• How worship music is uniquely positioned to serve our society
• How we’ve missed the point of worship music
• The tension between creativity and serving our congregations
• Why you should make art for yourself and not an audience
• How JMM created the guitar tone on “Daylight”
• Why art is never safe
• Spiritual formation habits and practices
• Viewing church as a spiritual practice
• How to process abuse and injustice in the church
• The story behind “sloppy wet kiss”

Resources Mentioned:

• Show Sponsor: Dwell Bible App
• Show Sponsor: Planning Center
• 1996 by Ryuichi Sakamato
• Playing the Piano by Ryuichi Sakamato
• The Way to Love by Anthony de Mello
• Awareness by Anthony de Mello
• How Music Works by David Byrne

Show Sponsor: Dwell Bible

This episode is brought to you by dwell bible app. In our busy lives finding quiet moments to read the Bible can be challenging. I get it. Traditional, reading focused apps demand undivided attention.

You have to carve out specific time and space in your day but this also means missing opportunities to engage with scripture in your car or during workouts, or while you’re just doing stuff around the house.

And that’s where Dwell Bible app comes in, offering a unique way to engage with Scripture. Unlike reading apps, Dwell is audio-based. It allows the truth of Scripture to be read over you throughout your day.

Imagine hearing the Bible while driving to work or running in the park or cooking dinner. You don’t always need to find a quiet corner.

The word is with you wherever you are, filling your every day, mundane moments. So give Dwell a shot— it’s a no-brainer.

You’ll get to experience a whole new way to connect with God through the Bible. To get started listening, head to dwellbible.com/beyondsunday for up to 50% off today!

Show Sponsor: Planning Center

This episode is brought to you by Planning Center, helping you sync all your ministry details across your whole church.

Planning Center has become so essential to how I manage a team, that it’s almost impossible to consider local church ministry without it anymore.

Today, I want to leave you with a PCO pro-tip.

Does this sound like a familiar situation? It’s the end of the week. You’re about to leave the office when you suddenly think: Did all of our volunteers confirm for Sunday? You scroll through the schedule and sure enough—there’s a gap.

Instead of allowing yourself to spiral into a  panic, try this:

In Services, Planning Center has gap alerts. Turn them on, and you’ll get a heads-up days before service if positions are still unfilled or unconfirmed. No more end of the week scrambling.

Speaking of less scrambling, did you know you can access everything you need for rehearsals right from the Service media player on your phone? Lyrics, chord charts, arrangement notes—it’s all right there, so you’re not hunting for files in the middle of hitting those power chords.

To see what else you can do to make your Sundays easier, go to planningcenter.com/blog.

Part of what I love to do with this podcast is highlight some voices that often get overlooked. Cultures that are often pushed to the margins of influence in the Church but have so much to offer us.

Today I’m speaking with Terry Wildman. Terry is the Lead Translator of the First Nations Version of the Bible. Currently there is a New Testament and Psalms and Proverbs available. And the Old Testament is currently being developed.

Terry is a man with native ancestry who grew up in Michigan, was saved during the Jesus Movement, and became pastor early on in his life. What’s fascinating about Terry’s story is he wasn’t exposed to the history of indigenous people until later in life.

That knowledge led him down a path of decolonizing his faith, becoming a missionary to native peoples,  and learning how to disentangle what is the way of Jesus and what is not.

This is a deep conversation. Some hard topics. Difficult history. But a challenge we all need. 

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