Today’s conversation gets a little political. I’m talking with Matthew D. Taylor about his book The Violent Take it By Force: The Christian Movement that is Threatening Our Democracy.

That title may sound like an angry rant against anyone who voted for Donald Trump. Some sort of desperate ploy by a Democrat to take a cheap shot. It is absolutely not that. America is a democracy. Every US citizen has a right to vote for who they want to vote for. This is not a critique about Donald Trump or anyone who voted for him.

What we’re talking about a sect of Independent Charismatic Christianity that has become incredibly influential in the last 25 years and has wedded charismatic spirituality with a messianic understanding of Donald Trump. And these are the leaders who are closely connected to the White House today.

What does this have to do with worship? Well, it shouldn’t have much of anything to do with worship but it has been interesting to see Christian worship music and some of the more influential worship movements become so aligned with President Trump. When worship hits the mainstream in such a significant way, it’s worth studying why. Is it a religious revival or is worship or Christianity being used as a tool for empire? 

Topics Covered:

• C. Peter Wagner and the alliance between church growth and charismatic theology
• The New Apostolic Reformation and why it’s important we understand it
• A definition of Dominion Theology
• The Seven Mountain Mandate and how popular this ideology is
• Why not all charismatic/pentecostal movements and theology are dangerous
• Paula White and the prosperity Gospel
• The proper context of Mathew 11:12
• The problem with partnering American politics with Christian extremism
• How we got to where we are today with “apostles” and “prophets”
• Why charismatic Christianity is so fixated on revival
• Che Ahn and his network’s merging with the American Militia movement
• The story of Donald Trump and the Christians instrumental in his rise to power
• The Sean Feucht saga and what we can learn from it

Resources Mentioned:

• Show Sponsor: Planning Center
• The Violent Take it By Force: The Christian Movement That is Threatening Our Democracy by Matthew D. Taylor
• Matthew D. Taylor Substack

Show Sponsor: Planning Center

My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry.

It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning Planning Center. As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with Planning Center People, you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in.

First, some good news: People is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use People to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically.

In People, you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use People. From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do.

On July 25, 2025 Isaac Caree released a podcast interview with Norman Gyamfi. Norman is a music industry executive and part owner of Maverick City Music. Suffice it to say, this conversation created a firestorm of controversy and conversation around Gospel Music, CCM, and the racial tension embedded within the music industry. We know these things are going on, but for maybe the first time – a business executive let it ALL out.

Being that Beyond Sunday is a podcast about worship and the church, I wanted to talk about it so I decided to invite Rick Robinson, a Gospel Music vet onto the show to break down what Norman said and why it is so problematic.

One of the things Rick says in the interview is: “Gospel music is a sound. Gospel music is a culture.” And while it’s ok to reinvent and innovate, the beauty of Gospel music does not need toned down or whitewashed in order to succeed. If we do that, we lose the heart and soul of what makes Gospel music what it is.

Topics Covered:

• The history of Gospel Music in Chicago
• The important difference between ministry and industry
• The difference between the sacred music of Gospel and the business of Gospel Music
• The difference between the members of Maverick City and the brand of Maverick City
• How Norman let us see behind the curtain of industry
• Why Norman admitting he was a Trump supporter didn’t bolster his argument
• The problem with anti-black rhetoric, especially coming from a black man
• Why worship should be its own award category
• Why artists need to first and foremost be authentic
• Confronting the racial tensions in the music industry
• Why black artists are constantly pitched songs by white songwriters but white artists rarely do songs from black artists

Resources Mentioned:

• Show Sponsor: Planning Center
• Rick Robinson
• Otis Blackwell/David Letterman Interview
• Yacht Rock: A Documentary

Show Sponsor: Planning Center

My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry.

It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning Planning Center. As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with Planning Center People, you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in.

First, some good news: People is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use People to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically.

In People, you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use People. From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do.

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Today’s conversation is with Pastor and author Brian Zahnd. Brian is the founding and lead pastor of Word of Life Church in St Joseph, MO and the author of 11 books.

Brian is not my pastor, but he’s one of the voices I look to in this cultural moment. He’s a voice of clarity, sanity, history, and Bible.

Here’s a quick quote from the interview:

“I’m convinced the greatest task of the pastoral vocation in America is discipling people who have already thoroughly been discipled into a rival religion.”

Topics Covered:

• The story of how Word of Life Church lost 1500 people
• Why America is a rival religion to Christianity
• Why America is more akin to Babylon than ancient Israel
• How the charismatic movement went awry
• Why charismatic worship is so aligned with DT and Christian nationalism
• Why music, literature, and films are important to Brian
• How Brian uses music to write sermons
• Brian’s reading habits
• Why Brian is reading the KJV right now
• Why reading fiction is so important to preaching and theology

Resources Mentioned:

• Show Sponsor: Planning Center
• Brian Zahnd
• instagram.com/brianzahnd
• Postcards from Babylon: The Church in American Exile by Brian Zahnd
• Radical Forgiveness by Brian Zahnd (the book Brian refused to be interviewed on the Paula White show with)
• Water to Wine: Some of My Story by Brian Zahnd (a great overview of Brian’s church story)
• Septology by Jon Fosse

Show Sponsor: Planning Center

My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry.

It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning Planning Center. As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with Planning Center People, you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in.

First, some good news: People is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use People to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically.

In People, you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use People. From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do.